Nathalie de Saint Phalle: ‘I am not a sheep, I’m a goat’
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My personal style signifiers are old clothes. From an outsider’s perspective, I?probably seem bohemian chic. I’m not?trying to have a style. When I was 20, like every young woman, I bought lots of?clothes. The late ’70s were the time of wonderful nightclubs in Paris and I?loved getting dressed up. I don’t love that any more. That’s the past. Now I need to have a?relationship with my clothes. It might be?something that belonged to a friend, someone who has died, or my parents: my mother’s blue shirt; my father’s pullover. I?love to repair things too. My grandmother repaired everything, so I learned as a child. I prefer old faces with their wrinkles and scars to perfect young faces. I worked in Egyptian archaeology for 10 years. I love ruins.?
The last thing I bought and loved was a night at the Grand Hotel Villa de France in Tangier. I wanted to be near the room where Matisse stayed. He spent three months in Tangier and did a lot of painting in the hotel because it was raining. I went there with my parents and sister for a month when we were children. At that time, my parents were close to the Beat Generation – William S Burroughs and Brion Gysin. I wanted to see it again.?

The place that means a lot to me is Iran. I first went as a journalist in 1991, and I became a rug and textiles buyer for 10 years. It’s the most poetic country in the world, which is difficult to understand when you are reading the newspapers today. I love Persian culture, from the past until now. It’s the answer to all my questions. I love the desert, civilisation and architecture. My?father was a poet, so I have a poetic as well as a political vision of the world.?
And the best souvenirs I’ve brought home are rugs from Kurdistan. They were creating these rugs 10,000 years ago, from the beginning of civilisation until the 1970s. They mark the transition from the time of hunter-gatherers to agriculture. I would love to write a book about rugs and the end?of that nomadic way of life.?
The best book I’ve read in the past year is the definitive biography on Kafka,?written by a German author, Reiner Stach, in three volumes of 600 pages each.?I?spent the year with Kafka, whom I?have loved since I was about 15. Each year?we are living in a more Kafkaesque world. Everything is blocked, nothing is working. You have to speak to some random guy at?a?call centre. Everybody has?to read at?least?one of his works.?


My style icon is David Bowie. I was 13 when he appeared. I had an electric guitar. Hunky Dory was a revelation. Like everyone, I was in love with him. I took pictures of my friends to look like the cover of the album.?
The best gift I’ve given recently is a little book from a series of the same name, Petit?livre en voyage, made by my mother, Fran?oise Janicot, a feminist artist. She created these little books of monochrome watercolours, a different colour each day: pink, blue, black. It was a kind of diary. I?gave one to someone I really appreciate.?
And the best gift I’ve received is a?3,000-year-old pendant of a goat in Luristan bronze from an Iranian friend who?lives in Paris. Her mother died and they had three, so she gave me one.?
The last music I downloaded was “Ver?nderet” by Fai Baba, a Swiss musician. I travel a lot and never stop listening to music.?

I collect anything and everything. I take screenshots of everything I like on my computer and have folders organised by theme: Animaux, Arbres, Bibliothèques, Cabines Téléphoniques, Canards. I came to Naples in 1993 to print books, renting an apartment at the Palazzo Spinelli in 1996, where I still live. Then, from 1999, I also rented the Palazzo Marigliano, where for 12?years, I ran the Albergo del Purgatorio, the invented house of an imagined traveller and collector called Robert Kaplan. It doubled up as a gallery and club, where artists such?as Esther Ferrer, Joerg Huber?and John Giorno were among his “collection”. Purgatorio II then ran at Spinelli until April last year. Over the years more than 10,000 people have been guests at both houses and I still open my doors to whomever wants to sleep here. I ask people to leave a book with their name and date written in it. There are 5,000 books, but my collection of friends is the most precious.?


The best way to spend €20 is by buying?a?bottle of something and inviting someone?to drink it. As I’m in Italy, I try to?buy Italian wine. I don’t know why, but people always buy me whisky.?
It’s becoming more difficult to make me laugh. I was lucky to have a very funny husband. I was with him from a very young age, from 16. I laughed a lot for years. The world makes me cry more than laugh today.?
In my fridge you will always find Schweppes tonic water, beer, water and salted butter. I love bread and butter and I love milk chocolate – because it gets so hot here, I put it in the fridge. My fridge is absolutely not my obsession, because I always go out for dinner at simple trattorias and pizzerias or friends’ houses. I?don’t cook. Food is everyone’s obsession. I?hate how people come to Naples to have a spritz and a pizza, not to see the Caravaggio. Twenty-five years ago,?people were asking me what to?see and do. Now it’s where to eat. I say no, sorry, I’m a specialist of churches, sculpture and architecture, not restaurants.?

An indulgence I would never forgo is?sleeping late. I don’t like alarm clocks. I?sleep later than other people, but I can also?work until five or six in the morning. So?if I open my eyes at 11am, it’s OK.?
The last item of clothing I added to my wardrobe was a green jacket designed by a friend of mine; a copy of an old gardener’s jacket. It’s very rare that I buy something.?
An object I would never part with is?my grandfather’s wedding ring, as well as?another ring that was given to me by a?Turkish woman who was like a second mother. It’s from an archaeological site, Milet, and it was taken from the skeleton of a Greek woman from 5BC when they were opening tombs. And also my old teddy bear.?
My beauty essential is pink lipstick. When I was 17 I bought pink lipstick rather?than red, and I’ve kept to that ever since. I used to wear pink nail polish too; now I only wear it on my toes. And I wear Chanel No 5. My grandfather’s brother gave me a bottle when I was 15; I liked it and I have never changed from that. I’m loyal. But I also broke my nose when I was 12 and 15 and lost the ability to smell for a few years. So I don’t want to try anything else. I use creams and shampoo left in my bathroom by guests. They tend to be luxurious ones. Chanel No 5, £145 for 100ml EDP?



My favourite room in my house is the terrace. It’s a big circular one built on top of an 800-year-old feudal tower. It’s a place where I?can get distance from the world – an ivory tower. I also feel protected there because it was used to protect the Anjou – the?medieval royal house – when they came to be kings here in Naples 800 years ago. The tower is built on an old church that?was built on a Roman temple, which was itself built on a Greek temple. When I’m up there reading a book or having a?drink with my guests or?friends, I know I’m on the top of civilisation.
My favourite websites and apps are YouTube for music and Arte for cinema. Mubi is also good. I’ve never had a mobile phone. I survived all drugs and I don’t want to try another one. Ten years ago I lost my binocular vision because I was working too much on my computer. I used to spend 14?hours a day in front of a screen. Now the maximum is eight. And when I’m out, there’s no phone in my pocket so I’m totally free.?


In another life, I’d be part of the resistance – I’d like to save lives. But I’ve lived 10 lives myself already. I was born into the avant-garde art scene so I know that world. I worked in archaeology for 10?years. I became a rug dealer. I travel. I’ve?created my art association in Naples and I open the door to people travelling. I’ve written books. I’ve been a publisher.?
I do not believe in life after death because that’s how I was brought up. My grandmother was very intellectual and was probably the fifth generation of libre-pensée in my family since the French Revolution. But she still thought it was important to understand all religions. Today, I could say I’m divided in four parts. A quarter is Protestant, because I belong to a family that was Protestant in the past. I’ve also been educated as a Catholic, because I’m from Paris. But I was born in the Jewish part of Paris. And all my friends and cousins, and all the 20th century literature I like is, for the large part, Jewish. I have a part of me that is Muslim: I work with them and travel in their country. I’ve also studied Egyptian religion. Without any religion, you wouldn’t have buildings. Everything they built was for the life after death.


The things I couldn’t do without are my glasses. I have lots everywhere. My eyes are the most important thing. I don’t like transparent lenses – I prefer to have pink or coloured ones. And always a circle shape, like John Lennon.?
The one artist whose work I would collect if I could is Robert Ryman. I love his white monochrome paintings. I saw them for the first time at the end of the 1970s, when I was about 20. Then there was an exhibition of them this year at the Musée de L’Orangerie in Paris. I felt exactly the same in front of them as I had 40 years before. I have so many images in my brain. I’ve studied art for years and travelled and seen so many places, museums and exhibitions. With Ryman’s paintings, I could project a kind of slideshow – a Pontormo, then a Pollock, then a Christo, and so on. I could do that for hours in front of his paintings.
I’ve recently rediscovered the ocean. After Tangier, I lost my computer and was invited to a friend’s house between Larache and Asilah, where there are kilometres of wonderful beach. It was just me and the ocean with nothing to do, because I didn’t have a computer. In the morning and afternoon I jumped into the sea. When I was a child I was often jumping in that strong sea, but because I’m now on a Mediterranean coastline you don’t get that strong ocean. I rediscovered the power of it, the beauty of its force.

My best ideas come from books. Books, books, books, books.
On my Instagram “For You” page you’ll find funny little videos of animals.
My favourite building is the Malwiya Minaret of Samarra in Iraq, which is the last Tower of Babel not to have been destroyed. I’ve never been there, but I’ve dreamed of going for decades.
The best bit of advice I ever received is not to feel obliged to obey if I don’t want to. Someone told me that when I was 25. I think I have the DNA of a goat. They do what they want, they eat what they want, they don’t obey. I am not a sheep, I am a goat.?
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